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NickWilson's avatar

Fascinating... Does zero exist, YES! But not as a material object, as a profound mystical experience! If we step outside of the mechanics of math, then we can ask, might there be a deeper meaning to numbers?

Now we want to ponder the deeper meaning of zero, and not just juggle thoughts, but utilize a method like Gendlin's Thinking at the Edge, or other similar methods. If we properly sit in a sort of meditative, even prayerful silence with the question, and we are truly completely open and receptive... if we have no preconceptions, and we allow an answer to arise, on its own, and it resonates... Well we might be surprised of the powerhouse of truth that is zero!

Zero both represents a state some call the Void, and we could even say it represents the openness of not-knowing that allows us to eventually experience the Void and ourselves as pure awareness.

You can't experience zero cause you still think the number 2 exists...

James Stalwart's avatar

The recent reflection on “zero” and “nothingness” raises important questions about how concepts relate to reality. Zero, though indispensable in mathematics, is purely conceptual—it has no ontological extension, and its meaning depends entirely on contrast with what exists. In this light, “presence of absence” is a contradiction in terms—suggestive in sound, but collapsing on analysis.

If “nothingness” is a conceptual placeholder, it depends on the mind. Defining existence in terms of its negation then makes being a function of mind rather than that which mind identifies and describes—reversing the subject–object relationship.

Similarly, “outside the universe” names no location but simply “where everything isn’t.” The universe is the totality of all that is—finite, specific, and consisting of a plurality of entities with attributes, actions, and relationships. To exist is to be something, with specific attributes, in relation to other existents within the totality of existence; this is true of each part, and the totality itself is nothing over and above its parts.

The notion of “internal universes” confuses conception with ontology. Divergent conceptions do not create divergent realities; they reflect differing accuracy in conceptualizing the same reality. Such contradictory views (which are epistemological) certify error in thinking—all while the universe remains itself unaffected by our mental activity. Plato’s forms, Aristotle’s unmoved mover, and the cosmological multiverse are conceptual projections, not ontological discoveries.

By your own reasoning, if the “ground of being” has no attributes and is indistinguishable from nothingness, it exists only as a “conceptual placeholder,” just as zero exists. This conclusion follows not from dismissal, but from applying the same evidentiary and logical standards that rightly govern every other claim.

Your account places God outside existence, outside empirical verification, and then seeks to establish His reality through “absence of presence” arguments or appeals to Gödel’s incompleteness theorem. This has the form of special pleading: the claim that the very thing in question must be exempt from the evidentiary and definitional standards applied to everything else. When a purportedly fundamental truth—one believed by countless illiterates in various forms—requires such mental gymnastics, the red flag is hard to ignore.

By contrast, my method begins with the direct perception of existence and the axiom of identity, yielding three corollaries: the necessity of attributes, difference, and relationship. From this foundation, existence itself is shown to make causality possible, rendering the notion of a “cause of existence” a metaphysical inversion. I trace how the mind forms concepts and expresses them in propositions, defining terms explicitly: existence as all that is, reality as all that is, as it is, ideas as epistemological, and the mind-independent as ontological. Anyone comparing the two approaches should immediately recognize the difference—not merely in conclusions, but in the axiomatic, systematic rigor of mine. Denying this framework is impossible without performing a contradiction, for language necessarily reflects the ontological reality identified by these axioms. This is not a matter of convenience or usage; it is the grounding of reality itself.

After some two decades of such discussions, I have seen a consistent pattern: once a theist realizes I ground all claims in the empirical and maintain a clear distinction between ideas and mind-independent objects, the conversation rarely continues. This, more than any argument, speaks to the real fault line between our approaches.

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